The "Ex-Gay" Myth and Why it Failed Me Read More!

Got your attention? Good. Because it’s true. Homosexuality is not a sin. Oh, I know. You’re running scriptures in your mind. Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. First Corinthians 6:9-10. Genesis chapter 19. Romans 1:26-27. Some of you are already looking for the comment section to start an all-too-expected, “IS TOO!” post to show me up. Let’s take a moment, though, and talk about this for a second. If you’re THAT sure that homosexuality is a sin, just what is “homosexuality?”

Preachers and pastors (and yes, there’s a difference) all across the country will sometimes have whole sermons dedicated to the topic of damning the “homuh-SEX-shual” as being the end-all and be-all of the worst kind of sinner in America today. Thankfully, people are beginning to educate themselves a little more on the topic, but that doesn’t mean that people use the word “homosexuality” to paint a broad stroke of something that should be very, very specific.

You see, words matter. Words can hurt. They can even kill. Scripture says it all too well:

The tongue has the power of life and death, and those who love it will eat its fruit. (Proverbs 18:21, NIV)

Imagine if you’re a gay-struggling teen who is beginning the raging, internal war of dealing with his or her sexual orientation and their faith. While sitting in your pew, you hear your pastor railing against “homosexuality” and how it will result in complete, eternal damnation. You hear them blast “homosexuals” as being “turned over to a depraved mind” or something. Instantly, you associate your sexual orientation to that horrible thing the preacher is damning — and you associate yourself with the damned.

Is there any wonder why our teens feel left out of the conversation?

Is there any wonder why one of the first thing many LGBT people do during their coming out process is to shuck their religion?

The far right hate groups are just as bad in their terminology. They attempt to be a little more “specific” in their wording by railing against what they call “homosexual behavior.” Even still, the conversation is lacking in specifics — and the obscurity is poisonous. Well, let’s face it. Anything the hate groups say is venomous, but hey — that’s why they’re hate groups.

So when you say, “homosexuality,” what do you mean? Even when you say, “homosexual behavior,” what does that include? As president Justin Lee points out, it generally includes four different possibilities:

1. Orientation. A person’s orientation tells you only who they are emotionally and physically attracted to. I call myself gay because that is my orientation: I’m attracted to guys, not girls. People don’t choose their orientation. Some people use the word temptations to describe their orientation.

2. Lust. A lot of people confuse orientation with lust, but they’re not the same thing at all. Lust is more than just being attracted to someone; it has to do with how you respond to those attractions in your mind. Lust is a sin regardless of whether you’re lusting for women, men, or even your neighbor’s snazzy new car. The same Greek word translated lust in the Bible also means covet. (More on this in another post.)

3. Sex. This is really what most people are talking about when they say that “homosexuality is a sin.” They mean that they disapprove of gay sex, but to someone like me, it sounds like you just disapprove of my unchosen orientation.

4. Relationship. When gay people talk about wanting to get married, it’s not sex they’re after, but rather, a relationship. Just as straight people (hopefully) don’t get married for the sex, gay people don’t either; we want love, commitment, understanding, and someone to come home to at night and talk about our day. For Christians who disapprove of gay sex, a challenging question can be how to respond to gay relationships. If there’s no sex in the relationship but there is romance, is it still acceptable? And would you assume two gay people are having sex if you see them holding hands? (Would you assume a straight couple is having sex if you see them holding hands?)

Be sure to check out Justin’s full post for his point of view. It’s quite good.

These four possible definitions of “homosexuality” typically define what should aways be discussed as specifics. I recently talked with a friend of mine on this issue, and stressed the importance of being as precise as possible. For him, “homosexuality” was the orientation. I pointed out that for most in his church (and as Justin pointed out, most people in general) define as “homosexuality” is the sex. It’s all about the sex. What someone does with their genitals.

Is sex outside of marriage sin? Or sex outside of any committed relationship? Well, that’s not something I’m going to cover in detail. But for the moment, let’s assume that it is. In fact, when you read the title of this post, you probably shouted out in your mind (or out loud), oh YES IT IS!

Let’s be honest. It really is all about the sex. When I say “homosexuality is not a sin,” you read, “homosexual sex is not a sin.” Didn’t you?

After all, when you read the word “homosexual” all you see is the “homo sex” part, right? Unfortunately, though, it’s not that simple. Nor is “homosexuality” a word that really fits in most situations.

But what is homosexuality? How should we use it in conversation? Or in sermons?

Because this word is so generic, it’s absolutely essential that we know the ground rules in any discussion or in any sermon. Pastors, use your words wisely. If you want to rail against gay sex, then talk about sex between men. I might disagree with you on the specifics, but please don’t use the word “homosexuality” as an all inclusive, damning word that may harm people in your congregation.

There’s a huge difference between condemnation and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. If you’ve got kids in your church swapping blowjobs (and don’t assume that you don’t), well, that’s obviously something to speak out against. It’s unsafe, risky, stupid, and is unquestionably sin.

But imagine if you have a gay-struggling teen who’s completely chaste — a virgin, even — but deciding whether or not to commit suicide because of his same-sex attractions. When you preach your damning words about “homosexuality,” it can easily be the tipping point for a funeral in the near future. Words have power. Use them wisely.

But there’s one more possible definition of “homosexuality” that has to be addressed. Again, Justin Lee said it very eloquently (don’t you just hate it when someone says it better than you do?):

I said that there are four main things someone might mean when they talk about homosexuality, but there’s actually a fifth one. For many folks (and I confess this was true of me as well for years), the word homosexuality conjures up images of debauchery, promiscuity, and the worst stereotypes of the gay community. But of course, that’s not what it is to be gay at all, just as images of Mardi Gras don’t convey what it is to be straight.

So when you hear the word “homosexuality,” and you think about men wearing assless chaps, then let me be clear: that ain’t it. It’s not the twink clubs or the drag shows or even the bear bars. In fact, “homosexuality” (as well as “homosexual”) is a word that has so many definitions — and so many insinuations, that it’s probably a good idea to drop it from our vocabulary until we can agree — as a society — just what the hell it means.

In the meantime, let’s just go back to talking about gay people — as people.

There’s a thought.

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70 Responses to Homosexuality is Not a Sin.

  1. Tony Marcum says:

    Great post. I wanted to add that in all actuality, to speak against this in the way you say is a sin. Because if a pastor rails about homosexuality and a chaste teen that is oriented to homosexuality that has not had sex commits suicide, then the pastor has caused him/her to sin. We have to be careful to to be the cause of someone else sinning.

  2. Tony Marcum says:

    Great post. I wanted to add that in all actuality, to speak against this in the way you say is a sin. Because if a pastor rails about homosexuality and a chaste teen that is oriented to homosexuality that has not had sex commits suicide, then the pastor has caused him/her to sin. We have to be careful to to be the cause of someone else sinning.

  3. John B. Balauat says:

    This is awesome.

  4. Kaye Equality says:

    nice one!

  5. I don't know how anyone could say it better than that! Thank you!

  6. Just as another point of view; I refuse to believe that God has nothing better to do than sit around worrying about what set of genitals is banging away against another, either inside or outside of marriage or a committed relationship. With all the real issues in the world that should concern everyone of faith or no faith, it is simply ludicrous to think that God cares a whit about sex of any kind between consenting adults. What God DOES care about is how we treat each other and we treat the world in which we all live.

  7. If you study long and hard you will see that Sodom was not destroyed because of the "sodomites", they were just a symptom of a culture that was completley devoid of God. The big push to normalise a deviant behavior and to force it on the Christian Church as an accepted lifestyle with bullying and name calling is what I am against. The tactics of subversion, covert actions, and propaganda such as this (advice to pastors(; will only work on the weak minded progressive liberals. We will not bow down to your idols……

    • If it was destroyed because of sodomites, then why is it that Jesus never mentioned "sodomites" when talking about Sodom? Ezekiel 16:49-50 says exactly why Sodom was destroyed. No "long and hard" study needed. :)

    • Christina Lynn Johnson says:

      What depraved behavior? Sexual relations between two people in a committed relationship? Or gang rape? Keep in mind, the survivors (Lot and his daughters), engaged in debauchery and incestuous relations after surviving a horrible disaster that had befallen a city that they had come to call home. Furthermore, every time relations between men, and the one time that women, are mentioned, the texts are most likely referring to (considering the overarching themes of the canon known as the Bible) relationships where a person is being taken advantage of. In consensual, committed, loving relationships, partners should not take advantage of each other.

      Care to judge me some more?

    • Christina Lynn Johnson As I said it is only a symptom, and I said deviant, not depraved. Why do people always justify sin when it is "loving" and "Committed". So is it sin when it is only done when we just feel like "doing it"?
      49 Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit.

      51 “Samaria did not commit half of your sins; but you have multiplied your abominations more than they, and have justified your sisters by all the abominations which you have done. 52 You who judged your sisters, bear your own shame also, because the sins which you committed were more abominable than theirs; they are more righteous than you. Yes, be disgraced also, and bear your own shame, because you justified your sisters.

    • Jonathon Struve says:

      Mark A Flores: sodom was punished because instead of welcoming the stranger, the men of Sodom saw fit to have dominion over them, and in the most humiliating way possible, through sexual power. They had abundance, but they refused to share it. They had power, but they used the power to abuse others. That is the message of Sodom. Using sexuality as a power play, to prove dominance, is indeed an abomination. Sodom was never about homosexuality per se, but about abuses of power.

    • Tony Campisi says:

      Perhaps you should study a bit longer and harder…Sodom was destroyed by straight whores, not gay ones. And how interesting that you would have the nerve to tell others how to live their lives…coming from someone working in the casino industry in Sin City of all places. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone? Perhaps it is you who is weak minded…and if not, certainly closed minded.

    • Jeremy Christopher Wallace says:

      Mark A Flores so you believe that LGBT people are "DEVIANT" well you are deeply confused my friend and like what was said in this brilliant mans post it says the us Gays are not just about sex we want a committed relationship like all people do

    • Jeremy Christopher Wallace You all have missed my points and have seen only what you can see.
      What I Believe and what you believe are diametricaly opposed. Quit trying to force your lifestyle on us. Quit trying to bully and twist yourselves into my lifestyle.
      You want me to change my beliefes and my core values!
      Is that not what you are judging me for?
      I am only saying you may be missing the mark on what God requires of all of us.
      And by the way living, growing up, and working in "Sin City"………….You have No idea what I have done where I have and What I have been SAVED From!!!!
      YEAH! That Is Grace!!!
      Yes I still sin, but I know it, confess it to God as sin, accept His forgiveness, and repent.
      But somebody has lied to a lot of people and they believe that lie………..
      And it is not just you guys.
      I was Born This Way! Can I Change!

      Where doing the wrong is right? Living by rules pressured in Throughout time
      The lies are always being fed While the world is going to hell Do all you can to please one, please yourself
      A product of society, feelings are not inbred I'm made to feel no sympathy I may as well be dead
      I know my life means more than this But selfishness has been my creed
      Is there a way to feel againTo remove this rotted seed
      I was born this way, can I change!
      Or will I remain a product of society Lust and power, insidious greed A make up of what I am I owe society for who I am A selfish child in the form of a manFeelingless, I could care less
      About what happens to you
      Repent, recant, change my ways?
      Contradiction from what I knew Society's sick, the one were in Where doing the wrong is right Pollution of the mind, its now time Rise up against the filthThat's being fed to you and me
      Do all you can to please one, please yourself.

      That WAS Me….. Mark A Flores

    • Mark A Flores we are not forcing anything down your throat you are the one who is doing that my friend why would God make us Gay and then condemn us to hell for it if he wanted to do that then why even make us in the first place?

    • Tony Campisi says:

      Mark A Flores All I can add is that you are clearly delusional. You were born that way…can you change? No…neither can we. And last I checked it is the wacko fascists on the tea party right wing fringe who are bullying people and forcing their beliefs on everyone else. Delusional…simply delusional.

    • Mark A Flores says:

      Tony Campisi You are right. I apologise for offending you all. God Bless you all

  8. Tom Austin says:

    Although I still believe that to give in to the desires is sin, I agree with you on everything else. I don't have time here to explain, but I'll sum it up in that I believe that we are born with certain orientations, but that Jesus can free us from physical passions, as discussed in Galatians with being freed from the flesh. It's never easy, immediate, or in the timing that people would want.

    That said, I'm glad I went ahead and read this. It sounds more like you're talking about how we talk about it, rather than if it is or is not sin, and in that regard, I agree. We are too quick to rail and rant and try to change people through fear. Fear is never a way to change people for the better, and I would be distrustful of any person who uses it as a tool.

    • Thank you, Tom. I appreciate your thoughts. This is exactly the kind of conversation I'm talking about.

    • Tom Austin says:

      David W. Shelton You're welcome, but if they were my thoughts, then you would not appreciate them. I can only be loving by the grace of God. Without the Spirit, I'm a lunatic jerk, but it's by His power that I can give grace and love. God bless you.

    • We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Period.

    • David W. Shelton Jesus healed the sick raised the dead and fed 5,000 men along with their women and children. Still he had only 11 desciples and only 120 believers Even after he rose from the dead! That is because the people he preached to understood the whole message of God. Many are called," Wide is The Gate", "Whoever wants to follow me must deny himself pick up his cross and follow me" That Phrase is in all four gospels!!! Tell me how many people Total were saved after, Noah preached for Ninety Years while buliding the Arc + after Angels came down from heaven to Sodom + the survivors who came out of Egypt who made it to the promised land = .000001% My God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow. We reap what we sow.

    • Mark A Flores Oh, I see. You think you're one of the special ones, then. No one is saved unless we all think and behave exactly like you. Thanks anyway. I can only take so much legalistic excrement in one lifetime. You don't live under grace. You just traded one law for another. No thanks.

    • David W. Shelton We are all Special in our own ways. I will leave you with this about grace.
      Again, Augustine says (1 Soliloq. 6): “the most certain sciences are like things lit up by the sun so that they may be seen. But it is God who gives the light. Reason is in our minds as sight is in our eyes, and the eyes of the mind are the senses of the soul.” Now however pure it be, bodily sense cannot see any visible thing without the light of the sun. Hence however perfect be the human mind, it cannot by reasoning know any truth without the light of God, which belongs to the aid of grace.

      3. Again, the human mind cannot understand truth except by thinking, as Augustine explains (14 De Trin. 7). Now in II Cor. 3:5 the apostle says: “Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything as of ourselves.” Hence a man cannot know truth by himself, without the help of grace.

      On the other hand: Augustine says (1 Retract. 4): “I do not now approve of having said in a prayer ‘O God, who dost will that only the pure shall know truth.’ For it may be replied that many who are impure know many truths.” Now a man is made pure by grace, according to Ps. 51:10: “Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me.” It follows that a man can know truth by himself, without the help of grace.

    • Jeremy Christopher Wallace says:

      Mark A Flores The way I see it is that everyone is the same in the eyes of God. God does not see anyone as better then anyone else but that is what most people believe "that just because they are saved by the grace of God and Jesus that they are better then the other people." Jesus did not die on the cross to save certain people he did it to save all people. It don't matter you orientation, Race, culture, or any other difference our human minds have developed.

    • So, you're saying God, who knows us from the womb, knits us together as homosexuals(and yes, they are "born that way") then condemns us to hell for it? Seriously? I have to say, if He were that heartless and evil I'd want nothing to do with Him!

  9. Johnny Schaefer says:

    Some great point, but I would suggest having someone help clean up the grammar. Posts like this are more effective when one isn't disracted by errors.

    • Thanks, Johnny — I'll go through it again. This is what happens when I edit my own writing. Oops.

    • Tony Marcum says:

      Is bad grammar a sin? maybe pointing it out when it doesn't matter is a sin? Pointing out grammar issues is more distracting than grammar issues themselves.

    • Tony Marcum I did make a few minor edits. If you guys see anything else, please let me know. I don't mind spit-shining it. :)

    • Tony Marcum says:

      David W. Shelton Personally, I don't believe it's a big deal. Thanks for simply taking the time to share your thoughts. Errors or not.

    • Johnny Schaefer says:

      It's so easy to do. Case in point, my post above has a mistake! I did it on my tiny phone keyboard and left off the S in "points"! Good grief. The scripture about taking the log out of your own eye comes to mind. :-) I only brougnt it up because I think the message is great but it can be undermined by little things. People who are looking for a way to dismiss you will sieze upon anything they can. Might as well not make it too easy! :-) Great job, though.

    • Tony Marcum says:

      Johnny Schaefer I think if they are looking that closely for a reason to dismiss a message, then they aren't going to be persuaded anyway.

  10. I'm with John Mandeville; somehow the idea of the Creator of the Universe getting all bent our of shape over what consenting adults are doing (or not doing, as the case may be) in the privacy of their own bedrooms is not only stupid, it borders on the farcical. If I thought for one second that God was going to send me to burn for eternity over an orientation that I never asked for in the first place, I would have left the Church years ago. The God I worship is not a sadistic psychopath.

    And while we're on the subject of what goes on in the privacy of the bedroom, my husband and I will be married ten years this 21 December; I am forty-nine and he is fifty-five. You want to know what happens in that bedroom most of the time? SLEEP.

    (How appalling.)

    roflol ><

    • Crystal Seymore says:

      It's because some people limit God by giving him human like characteristics.God is stronger than hate he loves us all.Yet some people seem to want to speak for God oh God hates such and such noo you hate and now your trying to use God to further your agenda and thats what is going on now and has went on since the beginning of time people using God for their own reasons.

    • Hannah Becton says:

      I remember watching the documentary Out in America. There were these two cute old ladies who found and fell in love with each other in their old age. I don't think they're having any kind of sex!

  11. Everyone should read 1 Corinthians 6. We were all born a lot of different types of sinners but the scripture says we were washed by Jesus Christ. I don't think railing insensitively in a sermon is the right answer but neither is agreeing to preserve feelings. Jesus was always gentle and loving in his response to sin but he did respond to it. (except the temple thrashing) homosexuality is a twisting of what God ordained in the creation. However it is no greater or lesser sin than stealing or adultery or murder. We as humans have given different levels of sin but ALL sin is a break from our relationship with God. A lie is murder and list is adultery. We must not throw the baby out with the bath water Love is the over arching theme in our relationship with God and each other. To destroy some one emotionally to get a dogmatic point across is just as evil or sinful as the sin being attacked. We must Love first and believe God knows what He is doing.

    I do believe God is everywhere and in everything. John 1:1-5. Including our bedroom.

    • "Including our bedroom." Lo' and behold you clearly missed the entire point of the post. Not to be rude (even though I am) perhaps you should comprehend the subject matter before responding to it.

    • @Nathan just as a clarifier that part of my comment wasn't directed as a response to the main article but at some of the other comments that were posted.

    • Lora Baxter says:

      well said Nordean Baxter II

    • Junia Zacari says:

      When you say "homosexuality is a twisting of what God ordained in the creation. However it is no greater or lesser sin than stealing or adultery or murder", which definition listed in this article are you using in your use of homosexuality here?

      Is my natural inclination to be attracted to women, that is, the very makeup of my being, akin to the sin of murder? Or would that only be the case if I decided to have sex with another woman?

  12. And there are pastors and preachers all around the country who are not preaching that it is a sin or the cause of damnation or anything else. Don't paint everyone with the same brush.

  13. Beth Monroe says:

    The religious argument about sin is completely irrelevant. Why? Because freedom of religion also means freedom FROM religion. And while I am free to believe how I wish, that does not give me the right to force my beliefs on you, nor for "you" to force yours on me. Go about your life and live it how you will, it is none of my concern. Just as my life and the way I live is none of "yours"

  14. Donn Coon says:

    It may have been good to include in this essay that the word 'homosexual' was not even coined until the mid-19th Century. Prior to that, there was (worldwide, throughout history) there was merely one's 'sexuality'.

    Another point that may be helpful is to understand that most Judeo-Christian scriptural references that seem to be against homosexuality are actually conscription opposing people with natural-born heterosexual dispositions doing 'homosexual' acts, like with prostitutes. Contrariwise, people with natural-born 'homosexual' constitutions are better off sticking with their own, as God has created them to be. There simply are no references, though, that condemn one's being homosexual, nor from performing sexually as one is created.

    God made each of us and loves us equally, whether we were made to be straight or gay. Claims otherwise are from those who stick to that was thumped at them from an under-educated pulpit.

  15. Donn Coon says:

    It may have been good to include in this essay that the word 'homosexual' was not even coined until the mid-19th Century. Prior to that, worldwide, throughout history, there was merely one's 'sexuality'.

    Another point that may be helpful is to understand that most Judeo-Christian scriptural references that seem to be against homosexuality are actually conscription opposing people with natural-born heterosexual dispositions doing 'homosexual' acts, like with temple prostitutes. Contrariwise, people with natural-born 'homosexual' constitutions are better off sticking with their own, as God has created them to be. There simply are no references, though, that condemn one's being homosexual, nor their performing sexually as one is created.

    God made each of us and loves us equally, whether we were made to be straight or gay. Claims otherwise are from those who stick to what was thumped at them from an under-educated pulpit.

  16. Buzz Dixon says:

    50 years ago the same words & tones were used to describe people falling in love with & marrying someone of another race. Frankly, I'm curious where the haters are going to shift their attention to once gay rights become universal.

  17. I simply refuse to believe God is evil enough to condemn someone for the way He made them. I am more inclined to believe the prohibitions in the Bibke are against sex outside of marriage and sex with whomever and however nany as possibke, exactly as it is with heteros. And by blocking same sex marriage, we are forcing gays to commit those sins, which is a sin unto itself!

  18. Brian Benson says:

    I would take any act of love over any act of hate, anyday.

  19. Tony Roug says:

    I agree with the post. I sense the whole "Christian" homosexuality discussion is happening because many Christians are more interested in judging others than focusing on their own sins (including not be honest about their own same-sex-attraction issues). As Matthew 7:5 says "You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye." and John 8:7 "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Bottom line, if you don't have same sex attraction or are unwilling to be honest about your issues, stay out of the discussion. Focus on the "logs" still in your own eyes first. I'm sorry but I'm very frustrated about Kirk Cameron and his bizarre need to comment on homosexuality. Not what I would call a good example of being a Christian. Tim Tebow seems to be one of the rare examples of focusing on his Christian journey not comment on others.

    • Hey Tony, I'm probably one of the more liberal ones on here and usually play the devil's advocate with topics relating to christianity or beliefs, etc, I did read the entire article. It made me wonder what it was going to be about. I leave judgement on people's hearts up to God. I really don't know how God will judge exactly, but this blurb does contradict some basic fundamentals of christianity. God looks at the heart, so i think in the big picture, the sin is not the issue, but it's a persons willingness to change what they are doing even if the struggle remains. Having a desire for something wrong is human, but embracing it contradicts the christian core. I don't get too involved with people's orientation, but i was curious to see where this article was going and if the thoughts were consistent. I'm not preaching or arguing whether people are going to hell for this. I'm not the best model right now, so i'm not trying to get into anything. In all objective terms, it deosn't seem worthwhile to tailor a religion. Just accept it, or forget it and live your life. Tailoring it won't get you anywhere in the long run *if* whatever religion you are with is the real deal.

    • I think the author makes a good point. As one who preaches weekly I know that it is very important that we define the terms we use. H

    • Tony Roug says:

      Anthony, Your comments about tailoring a religion are interesting give that Father Dana (my priest friend) also commented. How do we as "protestants" comment in any form on tailoring a religion. By our very nature as protestants, Father Dana would point out we have all chosen to be our own Pope. Think of it this way, who on earth would you put in authority over your personal interpretation of what your version of the Bible (remember, the protestant bible is not the catholic bible) says. Even if we believe the Bible is ineherant (which even most protestant scholars don't believe and the Catholic church doesn't require), the Bible can't be really understood without understanding the culture under which it was written. Where is the inherent version of the culture that we can use to understand what is in the Bible. IMO: the Catholic church (or Greek orthodox- let Father Dana comment here) is only really credible in stating a position on what is absolute Christianity given they have both the Cultural credibility and a hierarchy (i.e. the magesterium) that really gives one an earthy understanding of what it means to be under an absolute (i.e. the Pope) authority. I'm not Catholic at this point because I have a hard time with that absolute authority. I think anyone who is not Catholic needs to acknowledge the same thing and then be very humble about what they can say about the Bible (what a person I respect called espistolic humility). As a result, I'm very much in Rob Bell's camp – i.e. Love Win's! At least until I decide to become Catholic. :)

  20. Konrad Sjoblom says:

    On this matter we will part company, which is ok, reasonable people can disagree. I will make my points against this as professional and non-arguementative as I can. As far as the "you shouldn't judge…" addage, I'll only say that, yes, I will judge as I'm called to. If you go back to what both Jesus Christ and Paul were talking about you will find that we are, as Christians, called to judge other Christians. How else are we to rebuke and correct, in love, if we are not able to judge the action and the heart of the person. That being said, first and foremost I will answer the over-arching statement of, "well, God created me this way". To this I will say, God created Adam and Eve and said that it was "very good" (I'm not talking about the Adam and Eve vs. Adam and Steve rhetoric either but the relationship with God). They were in perfect union with God until sin entered the world, FOREVER separating us from God. Although we are still image bearers of God (much like I look like my Grandfather), we are not God's creation. We are the creation of our parents and of our sin. If this were not the case, we would have no need for a Savior in Jesus Christ. This lie that "God created me this way" has been sold as a way to replace the need for Jesus so feelings aren't hurt. I'm sorry, but I was made a sinner by Adam and Eve just like my parents before me. Next, trying to separate the "act" from the person in this article brings up two points. First, it's very legalistic in trying to define and accomodate our own worldlly views on this, as well as any other issue concerning sin. This is what the Pharisee's did; create rules about the rule and exceptions for the rules and try to reduce God to fit in the box that they could carry around. So, for the LGBT label, 'P' can be added standing for Pharisee. Secondly, in trying to separate the act from the person I will bring your attention to what Jesus Christ said about the person who commits adultery. Even a man who has lusted after a woman in his heart had committed adultery; meaning that Jesus was looking beyond the act and looking into the heart, knowing that this is where sin lies and ultimately where the problem lies. The next item to address is the issue of Pride. This is the worst of all sins according Jesus Christ and numerous times the bible talks about making the prideful humble and exhaulting the meek. So, to shout from the mountain tops and march in parades and plaster all over the internet how proud you are to be a gay Christian is to boast in yourself, see what Paul has to say about boasting. But that leads to the next issue, the second commandment, the one that talks about having false idols. As I have just stated that being a proud gay Christian is boastful, it also means that the idolatry issue here is the worship of self and making the lifestyle of the gay person the functional Savior, thus replacing God with self. Which leads to breaking the first commandment by default, having a God here on earth to replace the God who is in heaven. So, when this article says that it isn't about the act, he's only partially correct, it's about the person. I can only say this becuase I too, am a sinner. My sins are not this one but I have mine that keep me separated from God which is why I rely on the saving grace and mercy of Jesus as I have no other hope. Now, as we are ALL sinners, equally, my sin is not any greater than this but this sin is equal to mine in the eyes of the Lord.

    • Konrad, you offer such foolish cliches and wrong ones at that. God created Adam and Steve; they are a wonderful couple at my church. God made some of every kind of animal species homosexual. God made some people gay. Stop blaming God for your human prejudice. And stop twisting the words of Jesus Christ on heterosexual sins to put your prejudice into His mouth. Jesus never said a single word against gays. And millions of gay Christians tried to turn straight for Jesus, but none ever has, according to the current president of the only global evangelical ex-gay ministry, Exodus International. Alan Chambers, president of that group says of his dedicated Christians, "99.9% of gays cannot change" (Google it).

    • Konrad Sjoblom says:

      Jerome, I'm curious as to which "foolish cliches and wrong ones" you are referring to? I tried very hard to not use tired cliches and speak to the the issue at hand, that being the separation of the person from the sin. My guess is, you read the first sentence of my post and all you thought for the rest of it, if you even gave it a serious read was, "oh he hates gays, he's such a homophobe". If you actually take time to remove the veil of your own heterophobia you might see that I spoke no ill of either. As to how I'm twisting the words of Jesus Christ, I'd like you to actually engage in intelligent conversation and point out some specifics of how I'm putting my prejudice in His mouth? What did I write where I supposedly took the word out of context? If you just want to be argumentative and tell me that I hate gays and that I'm just a typical homophobe based on the simple fact that I have a differing of opinion, I would say that you are the one who is twisting words to your own agenda because you are too foolish and prideful to admit that this too is a sin, not THE sin but A sin – there is a huge difference. Try not to be blinded by your own ignorance.

    • YOU USED THE MOST OVER-USED CLICHE EVER USED AGAINST GAYS OF ALL TIME. You did not read the article above. Being homosexual is not a sin. Sins are acts that separate us from God and keep us from loving our neighbors as ourselves. Being gay is not a sin. Bullying is a sin. Being hateful to other people is a sin. Putting yourself in the place of God to judge others is a sin. Being gay is not.

    • Konrad Sjoblom Being homosexual is not a sin. Sins are acts that separate us from God and keep us from loving our neighbors as ourselves. Being gay is not a sin. Bullying is a sin. Being hateful to other people is a sin. Putting yourself in the place of God to judge others is a sin. Being gay is not. You would see this if you could get past your human prejudice.

    • Konrad Sjoblom You are unintentionally funny. You have the gall to accuse me of not reading beyond the first line of your post when you show us you did not read the second line of my post by your question asking for an example of which cliche I did not like. I pointed out the one about Adam and Steve. It is the most overused cliche ever spoken against gays and totally without any merit because God did indeed create Adam and Steve, as I also pointed out. As far as you misusing the words of Christ, you falsely applied his talk of adultery to homosexuals. Any reading of that passage makes clear that is not the topic he was addressing. Jesus says specifically in Mark 10:11 that anyone who divorces and remarries is living in adultery. Half the people in conservative churches are guilty of that one, but mentioning that from the pulpit does not bring in the cash like attacking gay people does. And being gay has nothing to do with idol worship. Gay people wed for the same reasons anyone else does, to marry the person they love.

    • It's apparent that he didn't get past the first sentence of the article. Oh well.

  21. In fact, sex of homosexuals is not necessarily sin either according to the Bible. Everything is the "concept" of things. Read this study on all the key verses relating to this issue and consider the context. Worth your while.

  22. Bill Glenn Kaetzel says:

    It is a sin but so is lusting after women, which is one that I deal with on a daily basis. The thing is SIN is SIN is SIN. In the eyes of God there is no bigger sin than another. Jesus paid with his blood for ALL sins. Homosexuality is not the sin that I struggle with but I have my own that I struggle with and it is not for me to judge or anyone for that matter. So how about we all just listen to Jesus and love one another for who they are.

    • Steve McNeil says:

      BRO!! well said…….

    • Steve McNeil says:

      Amen brother….

    • bill you are well spoken on this and you know i love you like a brother but homosexuality is not a sin. I can prove it to you the next time we have a rock band session. Well, not prove it to you but rather give you yet another way to look at it. Start with this, God is love and within all of us. gay people love one another and have God within them. We have been tricked by man to think according to what keeps us in line. When you look at the whole picture it will shatter your heart but then strengthen your soul.

    • Bill Glenn Kaetzel says:

      Joe, I look at it this way, people are people and I respect people who give respect. I dont care how they live there lives that is not my business. Unless they come to me for advice then i will gladly offer advice according to my beliefs but not until then. I am not anybodys judge I too am just trying to make it in my Father's world. Love one another is a good way to live one's life. Not easy thats why it is the best way to live. Nothing in life is free and easy. So anyway my brother, thats how I view the whole situation

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